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	<title>Comments on: OBE in NYT</title>
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	<link>http://www.numenware.com/article/541</link>
	<description>Religion. Brain. Dogen. Language. Japan.</description>
	<pubDate>Wed, 20 Aug 2008 09:57:10 +0000</pubDate>
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		<item>
		<title>By: Ettsem</title>
		<link>http://www.numenware.com/article/541#comment-584</link>
		<dc:creator>Ettsem</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Oct 2006 16:39:59 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Quote:  If people start saying &lt;span class="caps"&gt;OBE&lt;/span&gt;s are the product of (not just â€œcorrelated withâ€?) brain chemicals and nerve cells, what will be next?

One thing I&#8217;ve noticed about rationality is that it likes finding &#8220;the&#8221; cause of something. It doesn&#8217;t like thinking systemically.  We&#8217;ve already discovered that &lt;span class="caps"&gt;OBE&lt;/span&gt;&#8217;s take on content from the person&#8217;s belief system.  Saying it&#8217;s just electrochemical means eliminating the concept of &#8220;information&#8221; from the theory.

You&#8217;d think that in this age of computers people would start thinking in terms of firmware, not just hardware (neurologists) or software (psychologists).
&#8212;-

Quote:  And it resolutely fails to mention Persinger.

I am very interested in Persinger&#8217;s work, but I&#8217;m starting to wonder what magnetically inducing a &#8220;spiritual&#8221; experience &lt;i&gt;means&lt;/i&gt;.  

I could take peyote or some other hallucinogen and have a &#8220;spiritual&#8221; experience, but since it is chemically &lt;i&gt;imposed&lt;/i&gt; (i.e. not naturally occuring) then the visions may arrive during a state of non-preparedness (compared with, say, meditation).  Therefore, I would expect such experiences (Persingers&#8217;s or hallucinogens) to simply recapitulate the person&#8217;s existing belief systems.  Based on what I&#8217;ve read, this is indeed what often happens.
&#8212;-

On the basis of my comments it may sound like I&#8217;m utterly against reductionist research.  I&#8217;m not.  But in my opinion we have to be careful that our beliefs don&#8217;t lure us into losing track of some of the pieces.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Quote:  If people start saying <span class="caps">OBE</span>s are the product of (not just â€œcorrelated withâ€?) brain chemicals and nerve cells, what will be next?</p>
<p>One thing I&#8217;ve noticed about rationality is that it likes finding &#8220;the&#8221; cause of something. It doesn&#8217;t like thinking systemically.  We&#8217;ve already discovered that <span class="caps">OBE</span>&#8217;s take on content from the person&#8217;s belief system.  Saying it&#8217;s just electrochemical means eliminating the concept of &#8220;information&#8221; from the theory.</p>
<p>You&#8217;d think that in this age of computers people would start thinking in terms of firmware, not just hardware (neurologists) or software (psychologists).</p>
<p>&#8212;-</p>
<p>Quote:  And it resolutely fails to mention Persinger.</p>
<p>I am very interested in Persinger&#8217;s work, but I&#8217;m starting to wonder what magnetically inducing a &#8220;spiritual&#8221; experience <i>means</i>.  </p>
<p>I could take peyote or some other hallucinogen and have a &#8220;spiritual&#8221; experience, but since it is chemically <i>imposed</i> (i.e. not naturally occuring) then the visions may arrive during a state of non-preparedness (compared with, say, meditation).  Therefore, I would expect such experiences (Persingers&#8217;s or hallucinogens) to simply recapitulate the person&#8217;s existing belief systems.  Based on what I&#8217;ve read, this is indeed what often happens.</p>
<p>&#8212;-</p>
<p>On the basis of my comments it may sound like I&#8217;m utterly against reductionist research.  I&#8217;m not.  But in my opinion we have to be careful that our beliefs don&#8217;t lure us into losing track of some of the pieces.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: DavidD</title>
		<link>http://www.numenware.com/article/541#comment-602</link>
		<dc:creator>DavidD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Oct 2006 19:16:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.numenware.com/article/541#comment-602</guid>
		<description>The most remarkable thing about Persinger to me was that he inspired Michael Shermer to write in his column in Scientific American that every spiritual experience could be reproduced through Persinger&#8217;s magnetic stimuli. Such overgeneralization is here again in this NY Times article. Ah, two reports of strange perceptions from direct stimulation of the brain. So we say this explains everything, perception, cognition, life-changing experiences? Right.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The most remarkable thing about Persinger to me was that he inspired Michael Shermer to write in his column in Scientific American that every spiritual experience could be reproduced through Persinger&#8217;s magnetic stimuli. Such overgeneralization is here again in this NY Times article. Ah, two reports of strange perceptions from direct stimulation of the brain. So we say this explains everything, perception, cognition, life-changing experiences? Right.</p>
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